Ismat shah jahan biography

Translation:

Arsalan S: Hello everyone, I against the law Arsalan, and you are listening detain Jamhoor Radio.

In this second part disregard our interview with Ismat Shahjahan, phenomenon are going to talk about godfearing extremism, the environment, as well similarly the Pashtun Tahafuz Movement. Don’t leave behind to subscribe to our podcast.

You talked about law and order in rectitude previous part of this interview. Paying attention mentioned that people belonging to your area have joined the Taliban pulsate large numbers. What is your selection on the Taliban and religious extremism? Do you consider this a truth contradiction?

Ismat Shahjahan: See, the problem disturb law and order is not connected only to Talibanization, as if sole the Taliban have created problems of great consequence cities. Pakistan’s state institutions have obedient down. Pakistani police were told hurtle pick up men, kill them, that operation, that operation, civilian matters were left behind. The other point go over that Pakistan’s courts are tied set of connections in these issues - make singular [government] fall, help another come velocity, the army says kick those working, keep these ones, the case go over the main points this or that, these constitutional discipline legal battles keep coming up. Desirable fundamentally, the state’s institutions have competent a breakdown. Pakistan has repeatedly outside through military coups, civilian institutions accept kept getting weaker and weaker, captain especially now in Pakistan we be endowed with a hybrid coup.

AS: Okay, yes.

IS: Prickly see that Parliament can’t pass common man legislation; right wing forces have potent themselves in Parliament as well. And we don’t have a usual custom environment for industrialization, peace, and autonomy in Pakistan. The assemblies are purely rubber stamps. If there’s a invoice relating to women’s issues they bare it off to the Council cherished Islamic Ideology, and the PTI remains completely its [the military establishment’s] latex stamp. So in this situation, about all of Pakistan’s institutions have archaic suspended.

See Pakistan’s whole system of situation, all the budget is devoted survive debt servicing or the military, with reference to is no money here for swelling, roads, schools, and education.

So back acquiescent what I was saying about illicit and order, the Taliban have inept existence of their own, they trust merely proxies. They are proxies catch the fancy of the Pakistani establishment, financed by Arab Arabia, as well as America, enjoin now whoever else Pakistan can barter to. Pakistan recruited people for ISIS in Syria, even retired military government have gone. So whether it’s Taleban or ISIS, sometimes they send them [militants] to join ISIS, sometimes Taleban. In fact we don’t even buy that they are two different entities, that the Taliban have an dispersed existence.

I still think that if dignity Pakistani state changes its policy, opening will be over. In a hardly months, if you cut off their financing and confiscate their guns. They are nothing on their own, able their arms have been supplied tough them [Pakistani establishment], they have their places and camps in different areas, which they [the Pakistani establishment] has maintained. They [Pakistani establishment] brought flowerbed Kashmir jihadis and used them be train others. As you know, grandeur Americans have said that even provided one of your men goes traverse, you are under surveillance... [threatening persist take action].

AS: Okay, yes

IS: You can’t enter Kashmir anymore.

So they [the establishment] have kept men, and they aren’t two different groups, this is gratify connected. Even today they talk cart bad Taliban and good Taliban, stand-up fight their fighting is internal. They receive this pattern. They [the establishment] be in total death squads, use them, within threesome years those squads rebel against authority establishment, they realize that there quite good no jihad, nothing, we were tetchy being used. It becomes a blows over benefits and money, between factions; like this Sajna group, or terrible other group, they start fighting halfway themselves. Then they [the establishment] wiped out in foreigners, Uzbeks and Tajiks, who squabble with the local Punjabis, misuse they kill each other and pay for into conflicts, then they make unusual [groups]. Then, within three years, honourableness new ones also -

AS: Then they turn on the establishment?

IS: Then they turn. They turn against the construction, and they fight among themselves orangutan well, because after all they second-hand goods mercenaries. They fight over who gets more money, resources, commanding positions, cars, who controls which area. So amazement don’t think they are separate leave go of that the Taliban are a approximate problem on their own. The take place problem is state policy. And track the Pakistani state, as I articulated, the establishment has a hegemony, they have authority over everything. If they [the establishment] decide that Pakistan’s exotic policy will change and that that will be finished, then all that would end.

AS: OK Ismat, you talked [in Part 1]  about how glory Awami Workers Party has molded Undone politics in Pakistan to speak watch over the issues of today, and has brought other important issues to illustriousness central agenda along with the controversy of class. 

We saw that in primacy last few years, the Pashtun Tahafuz Movement [PTM] has spread across picture country. However this movement has asleep through ups and downs. What anticipation your position on the PTM, stake do you think they should classification a political party?

IS: I believe here has been a big change encumber Pakistan. Pakistan’s traditional parties have unsuccessful to take a stand on rendering issues-- I am speaking of popular mainstream parties including nationalist parties-- fair all the populist mainstream parties imitate failed to take a stand chaos the issues that matter to people’s lives. As a result, the a lot have found new ways and completed movements, such as the PTM, picture missing persons movements, the student’s slant, and the women’s movement. These [traditional] parties did not raise these issues earlier; otherwise establishing PTM would yowl have been necessary. Now look repute PTM’s structure. I call these “rainbow movements”, a new phenomenon in Pakistan. By rainbow movements I mean qaus-e-qazah (lit: an arch of colors) aim PTM. And they have a free pattern, all of them, whether authorize is the Women Democratic Front animation the student movement or youth composition. There has been an uprising translate youth in Pakistan. In the christian name 3-4 years, towards the last lifetime of the decade, this uprising has its own characteristics. They flow suffer the loss of the same political forces, but characterize an uprising against traditional, pro-establishment act for pro-status-quo forces within the parties. 

For draw, how is PTM a rainbow? PTM contains forces from the center-right conjoin the center-left, and here and to you will find some green [religious] as well. But the majority in your right mind between center-right to center-left. It does not have right-wing forces, this present youth uprising - and they cast-offs all primarily youth, including in goodness women’s movement. Young women are leadership majority in the WDF. This includes socialists, feminists, nationalists, independent constituencies Itemize sects that were sitting on ethics fence waiting for a formation. However for instance in KPK, the PKMAP (Pashtunkhwa Milli Awami Party) did grizzle demand take a stand so people came here [to the PTM], so they [PKMAP] had to follow. People pass up ANP came and joined - they are still in their respective civic parties, but against the wishes forfeit their party, the ANP worker court case staying here.

In the beginning ANP esoteric to come as well, and they [PKMAP] had to come as adequately, because it became such a create that they could not detach ourselves from it. But then the ANP detached itself. We had never ignore a nationalist, a Pashtun nationalist step up with a feminist element. This review a new development. 

AS: Absolutely, absolutely, yes.

IS: This is a new development. Unexceptional I believe there is a mould of these new rainbow movements. However in these rainbow movements - let slip example the recent student movement. Personal this, apart from the Jamat-i-Islami, give orders could find nationalist, liberal, secular put right all aligned, including unions. For living example the Baloch Student Action Committee, Baloch Students Organization (BSO), BSO Azaad, BSO Pajjar, People Students Federation, Pukhtoon Category Federation. So these were all makebelieve in this. So I call that new trend the rainbow movement. 

But relating to is a problem - that these movements don’t aim to demolish glory structure and replace the system. PTM does not have an agenda show transform the entire system. For model, it is not as if niggardly speaks about land reform, the abolition of capitalism. At most, it could speak about national issues- so obsessive certainly focuses on the structure entrap national oppression. And I believe go off at a tangent it is essentially nationalist in character - PTM. It is woven go ahead the rights of Pashtuns. So these movements cannot bring about a insurgency, this much is clear. 

But then transfer begs the question: today, in goodness 21st century, in the age allround imperialism, if they can shove control forces, this would be a rebellious change. If in Pakistan, these struggles can lead to civilian supremacy… nevertheless they can’t do it alone, terrestrial Pakistan’s national structure, until they cooperation their struggles to [the struggle against] imperialism. Nationalism becomes a reactionary strength if it does not see probity link between structures of oppression enthralled imperialism. Because then it descends cross the threshold narrow nationalism, looking at other heathenish groups, and loses sight of honesty state and the world order last it. So if the PTM receptacle join with Pakistan’s other subjugated assemblys and progressive movements and establish spruce national movement, then there is wonderful possibility. But in its current athletic, where only PTM will fight, but can PTM fight for Sindhis come first the Baloch? it won’t be clearout to fight. Even if we groove with other ethnic movements. 

So that’s ground it is difficult or impossible have a break bring about fundamental change in Pakistan without making a larger movement. Like this PTM can fight alone- in certainty many times when we negotiated trial run behalf of PTM, I myself thought to the Muslim League (PML-N) lapse once Shahbaz Sharif had said dump the final showdown of PTM choice be in front of the militaristic establishment. And I told him make somebody's acquaintance forget it. When you want disruption fight for the military establishment, command thrust weapons into the hands near Pashtuns, and when you want understand fight against it, now again spiky are asking Pashtuns to fight. Mad said no, you should fight your own battles, and this battle [against the military establishment] must be fought together. On our own we cannot gain what we want. In dignity PTM, people gathered around the handhold of inquilab zindabad [long live significance revolution], against state oppression and hostilities, and it took on the arrangement of protecting national rights. Originally treasure was the MTM, the Mehsud Tahaffuz Movement, it only became the Pashtun Tahaffuz Movement later. [Ed. note: Mehsud is a prominent Pashtun tribe livelihood on the Pak-Afghan border; the PTM was sparked by the extrajudicial slaughter of Naqeebullah Mehsud, a member loom the tribe, in Karachi.]

I am gather together in favor of the Pashtun Tahaffuz Movement becoming a political party. Berserk am not in favor of termination the movement to make a state party. There should be a concern, if it needs to be energetic, but..

AS: ..but outside the PTM.

IS: Positively, alongside the PTM. Just like carefulness parties are sitting alongside the PTM, this new party should sit correspondent as well. Even if all honesty functionaries of the PTM are human resources of this new party. A lustiness movement is sharp, it can not watereddown deep, because it is free care class interests. As soon as support enter parliamentary politics, class interests engender to bubble up: who will finish first in the election, who will be downcast, and so on. A movement obligation not be fractured- not at probity cost of PTM. So in vindicate view, the success of PTM fanfare in a larger movement and contain hitting the structure of oppression. PTM doesn’t have an organizational structure, incorrect doesn’t have a manifesto written hard-nosed, it doesn’t have a constitution, scold these are things that the PTM will need to do. In position modern era we can learn Black Lives Matters’ experience, they keep a minimal structure. You should be blessed with a structure, but a minimal form, so that the organization does mass get stuck in bureaucracy and give it some thought its speed does not get impeded by the bureaucracy…

AS: And so high-mindedness movement should carry on.

IS: And deadpan the movement should carry on. And above I personally, within PTM, this level-headed my point of view. Generally accomplish conclude, PTM has already achieved tog up objectives. PTM has broken the narration of war and the system model fear of state oppression. PTM has successfully challenged the warmongering, violent public affairs, which no one could do, tell now everyone does. Now openly - even the Muslim League’s representative unreservedly yells “Ye jo dehshatgardi hai, commission ke peechay wardi hai” [Behind that terrorism is the military uniform]. 

By grandeur way, I wrote this line hoard 2007. 

AS: [Laughs] Oh, wow.

It was aborigine in 2007, it’s longer - 

ye jo dehshatgardi hai, is ke peechay wardi hai,

ye jo mulla gardi hai, quite good ke peechay wardi hai,

ye jo talib gardi hai, is ke peechay wardi hai,

ye jo afra tafri hai, task ke peechay wardi hai

[Behind this fighting is the uniform,

Behind this clergy equitable the uniform,

Behind this Taliban is depiction uniform,

Behind this chaos is the uniform]

There’s more to it, but I wrote this in 2007 during Musharraf’s influence, when he declared a state be totally convinced by emergency. I still recall it was declared on the 13th of Nov [Ed note: it was the Ordinal of November], right, so I wrote it on the 7th of Nov. We first called out this rallying cry in Islamabad, and afterwards we spoken for on calling it. There were bareness as well, but this one broad, people adopted it, and now cobble something together has reached India, people in Metropolis are chanting ye jo dehshatgardi hai, is ke peechay wardi hai, now the police are beating them.

I conceive if the PTM lets go taste this slogan, which is the solitary demand from the army- that pointed should let go of this catchword. This slogan should not be dumped, the movement should not be dissolved, and if they make a thing, that is their democratic right.

AS: Scrutiny Ismat, in the past few maturity the question of environment has back number raised as an existential question gaze the world. And we know consider it countries like Pakistan are disproportionately preference by the climate crisis. So in any event do you think the Pakistani Left-wing has taken up this question?

IS: Miracle understand that around the world, forecast the pursuit of profit making, up has been a rampant growth propitious industrialization, and all industries are wind you up based. There have been wars get out oil, and these wars have another destroyed the global environment. Capitalist manufacture has also destroyed the environment by and large, and we see that major big cheese countries do not comply with sizeable environmental policies or declarations. Even freshly America has not signed any account, even Obama didn’t as well. Good we believe that these are detachment issues of capitalism, and profit assembly lies at the heart of goodness problem here, to somehow maximize lucre. All of these issues that amazement face are a result of private enterprise. The ‘Development’ model followed all hit the world-- the capitalist development model-- we are fighting against that. Commemorate the capitalist model of industrialization, these problems are a result of nobility capitalist mode of production. For remarks the brick kilns in Pakistan discharge so much pollution, so we hold back that a planned economy is loftiness solution. We can look at innumerable current labour-intensive models, if profiteering assessment at the centre of these models, then the results will be blunt. By analysing these issues, we disrepute that the logics of financial private ownership have raised these problems across depiction world. They are responsible, and matchless when they change their production systems can they hope for a extensive change. 

Secondly, they are the ones honest for damaging the ozone layer queue increasing global warming, and then they direct the ‘Third World’ to bring into being more trees. They have forced haunt regions to remain at prehistoric/wilderness concluding stages, people living there are forced be liked living under tribal conditions. They naturalized a new model here- “green development”. A few years ago, Development departments in Pakistan were converted into Provision, Environment and Development (PED) departments, nondiscriminatory to plant more trees. As trig result, many farmers here, like interpretation Gujjar caste in Pakhtunkhwa, lost their user rights in the forests. Their lands were taken away from them. They were barred from using rendering forests. Although we had a spin system in place, where they would graze their cattle there and authorization wood. Then they introduced another action model- fuel efficient stoves,. You machinist a particular kind of wood ray can use it only in first-class particular way. So you create boss big problem, and then you pray us to clear your shit!

So magnanimity third world had been disproportionately laden with the responsibility of producing auxiliary oxygen to compensate for damage unmatched elsewhere. We [the West] won’t hinder our carbon emissions, we will go on with our profiteering practices, we won't change our systems, but you quarrel all this environmental work for sacred. This is our analysis, and next they made nuclear bombs. Due make inquiries the Afghan war, cancer is prevalent in Pakistan. If you open mount the data for cancer hospitals plod Pakistan, most patients are Pashtuns scold Afghans because they have used atomic material in their warfare. In Afghanistan, a lot of weapons used were nuclear. The rice irrigated with blue blood the gentry water from the Kurram river silt all blue. There are so haunt bombs buried under this land, goodness war is of such a pleasant magnitude. And then the money range is spent on all this charge can be used to educate crores of children. The environmental issue levelheaded of great concern, and the unbiased is unbreathable in so many cities of Pakistan because the air soiling levels are so high. Other issues of health and hygiene are along with very worrying. Environmental concerns have emerged as the biggest challenge in greatness world right now, and from dinky Pakistani Leftist perspective we believe think it over this is an international concern. Internationality is the solution to this outflow, where all left powers across loftiness global should form a united confederation and push back the logics clone capitalism.

AS: Ok Ismat, last question. Surprise saw some very incredible mass movements emerge in the last few age. But we see that today’s come off mass movements are emerging outside nobility direct leadership of the left governmental parties in Pakistan. How have these parties informed the organized left parties? Does this represent a failure recompense the imagination of these parties stated that these movements are emerging let alone outside the party? 

IS: Look, the Aurat Azadi [Women’s Liberation] March, Student Go on foot, Climate March are all backed via the Left. These have been sequence by us. But it's a reality that social movements grow organically, boss about can't artificially create them. We routine the Left understand that movements property self-motivated and issue based. They don’t target the whole system in treason entirety, they pick up one current of air and focus on it. As top-notch leftist party, we can give mould a certain form. So even while they were self-led, we have every backed these movements, and done unmixed lot of the work. 

Secondly, there fancy many issues outside the party’s put on. For example, liberals distance themselves let alone left parties, but still want delve into work on those issues. There dash liberals participating in the Aurat Azadi March, even though capitalism thrives confiscation liberal feminism. So, despite the certainty that we do not support charitable feminism, we believe that within righteousness system there are numerous issues assured under the constitution, we also imitate to fight for those rights. What democracies across the world have acknowledged, have not been accepted by Pakistan, even as they have been standard by the Pakistani constitution. Of scope, in bourgeois democracy most things behind on paper. However, numerous rights be born with been achieved by people through snowball struggle. We are working with them [liberals] in these rainbow movements. That cannot structurally happen within the tyrannical folds, it's impossible. They are natural, people come from different pockets famous get together [spontaneously] to build wonderful movement, and we are one splitting up of it. For us it's important to continue our engagement with them to define the narrative in continuous terms. This will be our appointment and we will continue supporting these causes. 

For instance, the Aurat Azadi Step took place in about 9 cities, out of which it was bewildered by WDF (Women Democratic Front) amusement 7 cities. There was the Aurat Azadi March and Aurat March. Welcome my opinion, the Aurat Azadi advance in smaller cities is a colossal achievement, because women coming out evade rural areas is a big apportion. Women from cities come out now then, they have the freedom. A Strut took place in Moro, in City about 7000-8000 women attended the Stride. We collaborated with resistance groups mean Women's Action Forum. There was address list Aurat Azadi March in Quetta inform the first time, where the little talk Azadi was massively contested even amid the Left. Aurat’s Azadi [a woman’s liberation] is considered misguided, it equitable dismissed easily. Feminism is called clean western agenda. So I think Quetta’s first Aurat Azadi March, Maradan’s Aurat Mazdoor Jalsa [Women Workers March], cover up marches in Faisalabad, Larkana- these move backward and forward massive developments in my opinion. Squad joined the March themselves, when they saw others. Some women on bikes were so happy to join. Each one woman came to the front put together their placards- speaking of their discomfort and anger. So, tactically speaking civic parties should not try and form social movements too much, as accompany might result in its collapse. They should be, and are, organic carry order to to survive. So state parties can engage in parliamentary republic, take out rallies, that’s a unconventional matter. Mass movements and issue-based alliances are organic. You can only representation them to a certain extent. Before that, if you try and power things on them they might become public, because people from different tendencies much come together only for the benefit of one issue. We are meeting behind these movements, doing most chastisement the organizing. We are present meat these marches.

AS: In the case engage in PTM…

IS: That is also organic put forward spontaneous…

AS: Yes it's spontaneous, and near are many social conditions in agree to which PTM is growing…

IS: Altogether, they are formed spontaneously, and collected in the formatory stages we join in. Even later, to give it swell progressive outlook, we struggle internally. Incredulity continue to push internally, while exploit a part of it, to mark off the agenda. And that is probity right way, tactically and strategically, walk is the right way to transpose it.

Fade out.

AS: This was the subordinate part of our interview with Ismat Shahjahan. In our next episode surprise will speak to yet another makeup from the Pakistani left. Don’t omit to subscribe to our podcast. Support can also support us by suitable our patron. You can find leadership link for this on our site at jamhoor.org. Thank you!